Hello Altap,
Congratulations on a really superb file manager. I have been following along for a long time, 10 years or so. Salamander is the most reliable and trusted tool on my machine. (I think it's absurd that you don't charge everyone another $30 bucks for all this work - so I will re-register when you issue the finished product.)
I have a suggestion for you.
I think the beauty of Salamander is how complete and powerful the program is - but the apparent complexity is overwhelming for beginners (my daughter for one). I suggest you ship the program (default install after download) with as much of the complexity *hidden* as you can manage. On first startup, the menus should be "beginner mode", the top toolbar should just have a few really basic tools on it. Let the beginners learn to love it. The experts will immediately set about unleashing all the features - you won't slow them down much. After all, it only takes a few minutes to go through the whole configuration process.
This is just my 2 cents worth, based on my buying a license for my daughter. Remember, good programming is the artful hiding of complexity.
Beautiful, beautiful program though. Well done.
Configuration Complexity - too much for beginners?
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Jan Rysavy
- ALTAP Staff
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You should add this option to the installer.
I did not know there is such a setting, even though it is plain in the menu. I would probably have noticed it if it was either in setup or in configuration.
I don't think it is necessary to adjust the configuration dialogs to the user skill level. A Beginner will avoid going there anyway. If he still does, what he needs is a 'Reset to default setting' button in some prominent place. A user using Intermediate will most likely be experienced enough to leave setting, which he does not understand alone, and will not let him be intimidated by all those settings.
This is not a vote against it, just a recommendation to assign low priority to it.
I did not know there is such a setting, even though it is plain in the menu. I would probably have noticed it if it was either in setup or in configuration.
I don't think it is necessary to adjust the configuration dialogs to the user skill level. A Beginner will avoid going there anyway. If he still does, what he needs is a 'Reset to default setting' button in some prominent place. A user using Intermediate will most likely be experienced enough to leave setting, which he does not understand alone, and will not let him be intimidated by all those settings.
This is not a vote against it, just a recommendation to assign low priority to it.
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guest
Configuration Complexity
Jan said:
Do you mean apply the User's Skill Level (Beginning / Intermediate / Advanced) also to Configuration items?
I don't want you to change *anything at all about the configuration dialogs or what features are available to experienced users*.
Ask yourself though, what a beginner's impression is when they download and install the package. I think it looks quite intimidating. My suggestion is that instead of trying to show *all* the features of the program on first startup that you should take the opposite approach - adopt some sensible beginner level choices and let him operate the program and learn to love it. After he uses the program for a while he will find the configuration dialogs and gradually start using the features that are important to him.
The whole point is to not scare off the new users before they even get started.
My suggestion is simply this: *ship the program with configuration choices enabled that reflect the skill level of people who are likely to be using it for the first time*. This doesn't affect the seasoned user of Salamander, because a new version automatically uses the existing configuration. An expert using the program for the first time could simply be pointed to the configuration panel as part of the initial setup.
Again, congratulations on this superb program. I wish you guys were in charge of software development at Microsoft.
Do you mean apply the User's Skill Level (Beginning / Intermediate / Advanced) also to Configuration items?
I don't want you to change *anything at all about the configuration dialogs or what features are available to experienced users*.
Ask yourself though, what a beginner's impression is when they download and install the package. I think it looks quite intimidating. My suggestion is that instead of trying to show *all* the features of the program on first startup that you should take the opposite approach - adopt some sensible beginner level choices and let him operate the program and learn to love it. After he uses the program for a while he will find the configuration dialogs and gradually start using the features that are important to him.
The whole point is to not scare off the new users before they even get started.
My suggestion is simply this: *ship the program with configuration choices enabled that reflect the skill level of people who are likely to be using it for the first time*. This doesn't affect the seasoned user of Salamander, because a new version automatically uses the existing configuration. An expert using the program for the first time could simply be pointed to the configuration panel as part of the initial setup.
Again, congratulations on this superb program. I wish you guys were in charge of software development at Microsoft.
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Jan Rysavy
- ALTAP Staff
- Posts: 5231
- Joined: 08 Dec 2005, 06:34
- Location: Novy Bor, Czech Republic
- Contact:
The question is how to determine the user's skill level. We can ask during setup (thanks to Sva for this idea) but it is not common in setup programs and users will be uncertain. (Also it will complicate the setup process: another annoying question to answer.) We can set Beginning level as default but a lot of users will throw Salamander away as too simple and immature shareware.
Do you have some idea how to solve this problem?
Do you have some idea how to solve this problem?
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guest
Jan said:
The question is how to determine the user's skill level. We can ask during setup (thanks to Sva for this idea) but it is not common in setup programs and users will be uncertain. (Also it will complicate the setup process: another annoying question to answer.) We can set Beginning level as default but a lot of users will throw Salamander away as too simple and immature shareware.
Do you have some idea how to solve this problem?
I highly doubt that any new users will think Salamander is too simple and immature. You could ship the package with beginner level choices (configuration) made but put a button on the top toolbar that takes the experts directly to the configuration dialogs. That might work quite well.
Anyway, I love the program. I don't want you to change anything at all about it. I think my suggestion might allow brand new users to gradually "grow into it" without having to immediately deal with so much information. I'm trying to help Salamander with the suggestion, not hurt it.
Best regards,
John Watts
Edmonton, Canada
The question is how to determine the user's skill level. We can ask during setup (thanks to Sva for this idea) but it is not common in setup programs and users will be uncertain. (Also it will complicate the setup process: another annoying question to answer.) We can set Beginning level as default but a lot of users will throw Salamander away as too simple and immature shareware.
Do you have some idea how to solve this problem?
I highly doubt that any new users will think Salamander is too simple and immature. You could ship the package with beginner level choices (configuration) made but put a button on the top toolbar that takes the experts directly to the configuration dialogs. That might work quite well.
Anyway, I love the program. I don't want you to change anything at all about it. I think my suggestion might allow brand new users to gradually "grow into it" without having to immediately deal with so much information. I'm trying to help Salamander with the suggestion, not hurt it.
Best regards,
John Watts
Edmonton, Canada
If you want to change something regarding this, I would not default to Beginner level for exactly the reason you state. Besides, beginners don't usually use a file manager. They stick with the Explorer since it comes with the OS. If they do they are either inquiring (eager to explore and learn) and thus will not be turnd of at some richness of features, or they were told to use one by an experienced friend who should have given ample information and instructions beforehand.Jan Rysavy wrote:The question is how to determine the user's skill level. We can ask during setup (thanks to Sva for this idea) but it is not common in setup programs and users will be uncertain. (Also it will complicate the setup process: another annoying question to answer.) We can set Beginning level as default but a lot of users will throw Salamander away as too simple and immature shareware.
Do you have some idea how to solve this problem?
But how about asking on first startup (if no user-specific registry entries are present and no config.reg file is provided). At this stage you also have the help file readily installed and can make use of it to inform the user about just what each option does and how he can change it later (the fact that it can be changed later should be part of the primary interrogation dialog).
I disagree because some new users (whether geeks, IT specialsts or whatever) might get the impression it looks very simple while SS is enriched with lots of features. Also the suggestion of the button doesn't appeal to me.guest wrote: I highly doubt that any new users will think Salamander is too simple and immature. You could ship the package with beginner level choices (configuration) made but put a button on the top toolbar that takes the experts directly to the configuration dialogs. That might work quite well.
A possible solution is the "tip of the day" window which can be found in some applications. The first tip will tell users that they can change user's skill level by going to the option menu.
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Jan Rysavy
- ALTAP Staff
- Posts: 5231
- Joined: 08 Dec 2005, 06:34
- Location: Novy Bor, Czech Republic
- Contact:
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Guest
omega said:
I don't use the wizard on other applications (always disable the wizard) but i can imagine that users who are not familiar with it might want to have a wizard to guide them *such as guest and his daughter for example.*
I'm quite knowledgable on operating systems and file systems. I have used Salamander for years and I know all the features of the program quite well. I bought a copy for my daughter and basically walked away and left her with it. Recently I found out that she hasn't been using it. That was why I made my original post. I had forgotten what the initial setup looked like.
I think I made this post in the wrong discussion area, but my purpose was that I wanted the developers to read it and I know they read all the posts here.
Let me be crystal clear: I like the program in every way. I do, for normal use configure it so that I can concentrate on my main activities with a minimum of distraction. So, I use brief mode to display files, I shut down all the "show" items except top toolbar. I also remove everything except actual disk drives in the drive menus. I have only a select few buttons on my toolbar: mark/unmark all files, pack/unpack, filesearch, compare directories, and a couple to change sort order.
For me, this makes a nice clean interface that doesn't distract me with unnecessary detail. I know where to look for the tool that I need and I know when to look for it. I'm not selling anything here - the purpose of my comment was to *maybe* offer a suggestion that might increase the subscriber base of the program. Hardly anyone that I talk to has ever heard of it. Me? Windows is aggravating enough without trying to get by with Windows Explorer. As for wizards, don't get me started - except that in the first 15 minutes after installation of XP I had the whole lot of them shut off.
Jan understands the suggestion I made and rejected it for his own reasons and that's fine with me. I didn't suggest any *changes* to the program at all. I simply suggested that the *initial configuration* may be a little "busy" for beginners, that's all.
The program is just fine (perfect, in fact) the way it is.
John Watts
Edmonton.
I don't use the wizard on other applications (always disable the wizard) but i can imagine that users who are not familiar with it might want to have a wizard to guide them *such as guest and his daughter for example.*
I'm quite knowledgable on operating systems and file systems. I have used Salamander for years and I know all the features of the program quite well. I bought a copy for my daughter and basically walked away and left her with it. Recently I found out that she hasn't been using it. That was why I made my original post. I had forgotten what the initial setup looked like.
I think I made this post in the wrong discussion area, but my purpose was that I wanted the developers to read it and I know they read all the posts here.
Let me be crystal clear: I like the program in every way. I do, for normal use configure it so that I can concentrate on my main activities with a minimum of distraction. So, I use brief mode to display files, I shut down all the "show" items except top toolbar. I also remove everything except actual disk drives in the drive menus. I have only a select few buttons on my toolbar: mark/unmark all files, pack/unpack, filesearch, compare directories, and a couple to change sort order.
For me, this makes a nice clean interface that doesn't distract me with unnecessary detail. I know where to look for the tool that I need and I know when to look for it. I'm not selling anything here - the purpose of my comment was to *maybe* offer a suggestion that might increase the subscriber base of the program. Hardly anyone that I talk to has ever heard of it. Me? Windows is aggravating enough without trying to get by with Windows Explorer. As for wizards, don't get me started - except that in the first 15 minutes after installation of XP I had the whole lot of them shut off.
Jan understands the suggestion I made and rejected it for his own reasons and that's fine with me. I didn't suggest any *changes* to the program at all. I simply suggested that the *initial configuration* may be a little "busy" for beginners, that's all.
The program is just fine (perfect, in fact) the way it is.
John Watts
Edmonton.
In my opinion there are 2 kinds of users:
a) those who install the software them self
b) those who get the software installed by someone else
First ones know what the want and are willing to explore (as somebody said here before) and learn.
The second group uses the software only after somebody shows them how does it work and what can be done with it.
I would say that 70-80% of them will anyway go back to what they already know and forget the rest.
I would say that atleast 95% of people who visit this forum belongs to the A group. So, if you hide features, it may happen that the user never gets to know about them.
Who knows and uses 100% of all available functions?
a) those who install the software them self
b) those who get the software installed by someone else
First ones know what the want and are willing to explore (as somebody said here before) and learn.
The second group uses the software only after somebody shows them how does it work and what can be done with it.
I would say that 70-80% of them will anyway go back to what they already know and forget the rest.
I would say that atleast 95% of people who visit this forum belongs to the A group. So, if you hide features, it may happen that the user never gets to know about them.
Who knows and uses 100% of all available functions?
I understand what you mean. Have you ever thought about the reasons why the people you've talked to never heard of it? Simple because many people (whether IT people or non IT staff) don't know what a file manager is. They just only use windows explorer because that's what they get once a windows OS is installed on their PC. They don't look for a replacement for windows explorer because they don't know there is such a thing as a filemanager. Also there are many people who are used to windows explorer and don't like to try other filemanagers and maybe your daughter is one of them. If you look at other filemanagers they all display many options but SS has this user's skill level which distinguish itself from it's competitors. Don't forget MS is trying to attract XP users to switch to Vista with it's new interface.Guest wrote:omega said:
I'm not selling anything here - the purpose of my comment was to *maybe* offer a suggestion that might increase the subscriber base of the program. Hardly anyone that I talk to has ever heard of it. Me?
So it's important ALTAP has to finish the translations and hopefully support unicode after 2.5 to attract more users around the world.
Here my 2cents on the discussed issues:
I think that Beginner mode as a default could too often lead to the assumption that the features are just not there.
I think that asking for the the user level at installation is too early (users have not seen the software at that point in time what makes it difficult to select the right user level)
I never use tip-of-the-day features as they tell me things that I do not need at that point of time.
I like the idea of a setup wizard at first startup ( if you offer a one-click all-bells-and-whistles Salamander style default). Offering WinEx style there could help new users. Other presets could also be useful e.g. a mouse-centric/big screens preset offering plenty of button bars and a keyboard-wizard/small screens preset with the opposite.
I see a risk with the current Skill Level implementation. Once it is set to Beginner or Intermediate, there is no hint that Sala has more to offer. I think that Microsoft had a good idea for their Office suite with this little arrows at the bottom of the menus. This is a clear indication that there is more available.
BTW, are the only the menus affected by the Skill Level? If so, I would suggest to add a "Set user skill level" to the menu bar's context menu. There is where I would expect this configuration. If it is really limited to menu complexity you could consider to rename this feature to "Default Menu style" with options like "Basic", "Medium", "Full". An arrow at the bottom of the menu could then allow to change from the default style to the Full mode. This way all features are intuitively reachable but standard menus are not overloaded with entries. This implementation may be even attractive for advanced users...
I think that Beginner mode as a default could too often lead to the assumption that the features are just not there.
I think that asking for the the user level at installation is too early (users have not seen the software at that point in time what makes it difficult to select the right user level)
I never use tip-of-the-day features as they tell me things that I do not need at that point of time.
I like the idea of a setup wizard at first startup ( if you offer a one-click all-bells-and-whistles Salamander style default). Offering WinEx style there could help new users. Other presets could also be useful e.g. a mouse-centric/big screens preset offering plenty of button bars and a keyboard-wizard/small screens preset with the opposite.
I see a risk with the current Skill Level implementation. Once it is set to Beginner or Intermediate, there is no hint that Sala has more to offer. I think that Microsoft had a good idea for their Office suite with this little arrows at the bottom of the menus. This is a clear indication that there is more available.
BTW, are the only the menus affected by the Skill Level? If so, I would suggest to add a "Set user skill level" to the menu bar's context menu. There is where I would expect this configuration. If it is really limited to menu complexity you could consider to rename this feature to "Default Menu style" with options like "Basic", "Medium", "Full". An arrow at the bottom of the menu could then allow to change from the default style to the Full mode. This way all features are intuitively reachable but standard menus are not overloaded with entries. This implementation may be even attractive for advanced users...
IIRC Microsoft itself said, that hiding menu parts in Office was bad idea - users weren't able to predict when particular feature would hide and it was difficult for users to find features they wanted. This was one of the reasons for the new Ribbon UI.
On the other side I like the idea of just hiding "Advanced features" in "Basic" mode. But the set of visible and hidden features must stay fixed.
You also mentioned wizzard with some predefined usage styles (ex.: treview+panel Explorer style, panel+thumbs mouse style, details+details keyboard style) This wizzard should be accesible even after the first run for the users to be able to easily change the usage style and user experience level using already known (from first run) and easy interface.
Altap can also add possibility to define other usage styles (or UI setups) and method to quickly change between them (with aforementioned styles predefined).
In current version you can just change view mode of one panel and you can only customize the detail view. (I already made a feature request for setting the thumbs size per panel view and not globally: Feature request in Czech)
On the other side I like the idea of just hiding "Advanced features" in "Basic" mode. But the set of visible and hidden features must stay fixed.
You also mentioned wizzard with some predefined usage styles (ex.: treview+panel Explorer style, panel+thumbs mouse style, details+details keyboard style) This wizzard should be accesible even after the first run for the users to be able to easily change the usage style and user experience level using already known (from first run) and easy interface.
Altap can also add possibility to define other usage styles (or UI setups) and method to quickly change between them (with aforementioned styles predefined).
In current version you can just change view mode of one panel and you can only customize the detail view. (I already made a feature request for setting the thumbs size per panel view and not globally: Feature request in Czech)