Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

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lew
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Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by lew » 08 Mar 2010, 19:23

Will there be support added for the Windows 7 Libraries feature? It would sure be nice. I know that it can be reached (sort of) through the Network->{computer name}.
Would be nice to have Libraries show up below documents.

JohnFredC
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by JohnFredC » 08 Mar 2010, 20:45

AFAIK, as yet no 3rd party tools support Windows libraries.

IMO Salamander should support libraries, just because Salamander is a Windows file tool and should support the entire Windows file system.

OTOH, whether Window's specific implementation of the file system abstraction they call libraries (and others of us call "virtual folders") will survive long enough to justify the development effort... who knows? The longer 3rd parties refuse to support a Windows feature, the better chance that feature will die.

It would be too bad though, because the concept of libraries (or virtual folders) supported at the OS level is a very powerful one. Better to simply support a pre-existing function of the OS file system than to waste resources developing one's own paradigm that does the same thing.
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th.
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by th. » 08 Mar 2010, 23:45

To me the libraries look like another representation of a search function (or a cheap surrogate for the once promised data base file system? :mrgreen: )

Therefore I think it would be good if the libraries were available as a search location when you search for files but not so good in the panels.

lew
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by lew » 30 Mar 2010, 16:04

I would be happy to see them in the drive selection list. That is where I looked for them.

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murphy
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by murphy » 01 Apr 2010, 13:34

May be a plugin can solve this. I also would like to see this.
http://www.dev0.de / http://murphys.me

lew
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by lew » 13 Jan 2011, 18:53

Still think this should be added. It sure is a pain for me. Forces me to use explorer. I do EVERYTHING in Salamander except when I want to use the libraries. I am a teacher, newsletter editor, and web site maker. These tasks all are easier with Libraries used.

Guess I am talking into the wind. Apparently I must be the only one using Libraries.

Sigh!

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Ether
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by Ether » 13 Jan 2011, 21:18

lew wrote:Apparently I must be the only one using Libraries.
Maybe it is so. I can give you three reasons why Libraries are not popular here:
x] The kind of people that use file managers (as Salamander, or Total Commander) are usually more comfortable with directories because they have learned how to organize files into "simple" directory trees (they had to).
x] Libraries are still new. Final release of Windows 7 is available for year and a half and a lot of people still (have to) use Windows XP or Vista.
x] Libraries are essentialy only Explorer's abstract and they don't work with the command line (and with file managers - which creates kind of a circular dependency - developers are waiting for more demand from users and users are waiting for support from the developers).
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by therube » 13 Jan 2011, 23:10

x] Libraries are still new.
I'd never heard of it before now.
Am going to post on another board, "now with computers so pervasive, does anyone actually visit the Library" & then post the Library link & see what kind of response I get ;-).
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SvA
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by SvA » 13 Jan 2011, 23:15

lew wrote:... I am a teacher, newsletter editor, and web site maker. These tasks all are easier with Libraries used.
Maybe you could tell me/us how you benefit from libraries.

My notion of what libraries are has always been: A band-aid for people who do not know how to properly organize their files in a hierarchical system of directories, so they more easily find their files again. Those people mostly will not know how to add folders to the library. I guess thats one of the reasons why they are not very popular. So, please, help me to see the benefit of libraries and how I could get an advantage from it.

Now, when it comes to Salamander, Salamander is a filesystem based file manager. it works with files and directories. Explorer on the other hand is more than a file manager, it handles all kind of objects. It works with folders and items which might be files and directories, or such things as a folder containing fonts or computers in a network or control pannel applets.

I say this, just to let you understand, that the feature you request is not a little change, but a major change of paradigm (although it might be possible to provide some sort of a library representation in Salamander without fully supporting folders, since all objects represented in a library seem to be file system objects at the moment. Microsoft might decide to add web pages or e-mails in the library also and Salamanders library was crippled again).

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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by JohnFredC » 14 Jan 2011, 18:22

A band-aid for people who do not know how to properly organize their files in a hierarchical system of directories, so they more easily find their files again.
I encounter this attitude all the time, typically expressed by network/server systems personnel whose purpose in life is to identify and maintain large numbers of system files. (Not that you are such an one, sir). Pardon me, but I find this perspective archaic and very limiting for the rest of us. File managers have mostly "topped-out" in functionality for maintaining the file system and innovation has ground to a halt.

For most users there are many different intersecting "hierarchical systems" of relationships between files for each purpose/task/function or endeavor. Indeed, project-oriented work on computers frequently involves groups of files of disparate types in widely disparate locations.

The purpose of libraries is to capture the links between the metadata of files (whether that metadata exists in the files themselves or only in the minds of the users) and present the intersections in new hierarchies dedicated to whatever tasks the user intends.

What I find curious is the opposition (expressed in file manager forums everywhere) to the implementation of additional views/abstractions into basic file manager behaviors. Many of us turn to other tools for such functionality, but wish for its integration into our favorite file manager.
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Jan Rysavy
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by Jan Rysavy » 14 Jan 2011, 23:13

What I dislike about Libraries implementation is how it is merging several directories into one view. Users will end with several files with same name, unable recognize the right one, unable to select such files to group and copy/move/upload/pack it elsewhere. It looks confusing to me...

We know this representation from Altap Salamander Find window -- same merged view, same problems and limitations.

This doesn't mean Libraries view should not be available in Salamander. It should and it is perfectly possible right now with SDK. See Undelete plugin, the {All Deleted Files} virtual folder. Salamander is already capable to manage same names in panel.

JohnFredC
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by JohnFredC » 15 Jan 2011, 00:08

Jan Rysavy wrote:Users will end with several files with same name, unable recognize the right one, unable to select such files to group and copy/move/upload/pack it elsewhere. It looks confusing to me....
This is a misconception shared by many.

Libraries are like virtual folders... or intelligent search sets: no duplication of files.

Go here.

Specifically, I quote:
So what is a library?

In many ways, a Library is similar to a folder. As we mentioned before, when users open a Library, they can see one or more files or folders. However, unlike a folder, a Library can display files that are stored in several folders at the same time. This is a subtle, but important, difference. Libraries don't actually store items. They monitor folders that contain a user’s items, and provide a single access point and rich view pivots (by file Type, date or author) of this aggregated content. Libraries promote a user’s data and let the file system fade into the background.
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by Jan Rysavy » 15 Jan 2011, 02:35

John, I think I understand it (just tested on my Windows 7), it is the same view you get with AS Find (when you search several directories for *.*). And exactly the same set of problems. You can have 3 different files picture.jpg, picture.jpg, and picture.jpg in one library. Try to pack these files to ZIP or just copy to some folder. Try to open the right one. You can't, you have no context, and it is what I see as problem. But it is just my point of view. Still would like to have Libraries in AS, for other users.

JohnFredC
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by JohnFredC » 15 Jan 2011, 05:15

Hi Jan

You wrote:
it is the same view you get with AS Find (when you search several directories for *.*).
I think most users add files to Libraries in an ad hoc manner... that is, a file here, a file there. The intention isn't for some sort of automated categorization (not "all jpgs", for instance, though I am sure libraries could be used for that). So I don't think that AS Find is an apt comparison.

Libraries are compellingly productive when the logical connections between files exist primarily in the user's head.

Consider how albums work in Picasa or collections in Lightroom. Something like that.

I have come to realize how much more productive it is to employ metaphors such as albums, libraries, collections, et al for my day-to-day needs.
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lew
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Re: Support for Windows 7 Libraries feature

Post by lew » 25 Mar 2011, 15:00

JohnFredC wrote: I have come to realize how much more productive it is to employ metaphors such as albums, libraries, collections, et al for my day-to-day needs.
Well said. I have maintain and put together a couple of web sites as well as newsletters. When I need to work on one it is just more productive to go to newsletters in my libraries instead of having to navigate all over my hard drives to get to the one I need to work. Example I have the following
Libraries-
             - Newsletter -
                                - 2009
                                - 2010
                                         - 2010-01
                                               .
                                               .
                                               .
                                         - 2010-12
                                - 2011
                                         - 2010-01
                                               .
                                         - 2010-03
The files themselves reside on a drive on my network. Publisher and Word and most software will allow me to go directly to the Libraries->Newsletter to access the file with more ease than navigating to the spot on the server. At least I find it easier.

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