Question About Selection Behavior

Discussion of bugs and problems found in Altap Salamander. In your reports, please be as descriptive as possible, and report one incident per report. Do not post crash reports here, send us the generated bug report by email instead, please.

Do you want to change selection beaviour in Salamnder to: When NO ITEM is selected, AAA item is focused and user Ctrl+click the BBB item, both items will be selected.

Poll ended at 08 Jul 2006, 10:38

No, I prefer the current behaviour.
10
53%
Yes, I want this new behaviour instead of the old one.
8
42%
Indifferent, don't care.
1
5%
 
Total votes: 19

JohnFredC
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Question About Selection Behavior

Post by JohnFredC » 03 May 2006, 16:30

For a long time Salamander's selection behavior has caused me to miss a file when copying or moving.

Here is what happens:

I click on a file in a panel, then hold the CTRL key down and click on other files. All files EXCEPT the initial file I clicked on are selected.

My expectations would be (and standard Windows behavior suggests) that if I click on a file, it becomes "selected" until I click elsewhere, UNLESS a modifer key is pressed. However, Salamander "unselects" the first file if I subsequently CTRL-click other files.

If I don't notice this, that first file does not participate in my copy or move (or whatever) unless I select it again. Very aggravating.

Is there a setting I can change? Or is this a bug?

This behavior does not occur if I use the SHIFT modifer key for subsequent selection clicks (after the first one).

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AbteriX
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Re: Question About Selection Behavior

Post by AbteriX » 03 May 2006, 17:02

JohnFredC wrote:...
Is there a setting I can change? Or is this a bug?

This behavior does not occur if I use the SHIFT modifer key for subsequent selection clicks (after the first one).
Hi John,
IMHO an single LM click isn't an selection in Sala (well it is in WinExpl0rer).
Your solution could be to hole the Ctrl-key at the very first file TOO.
AbteriX

JohnFredC
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Post by JohnFredC » 03 May 2006, 17:15

When is a click not a select in Salamander? Only when subsequently using the CTRL key. Huh?

Considering that a single click selects a single file for any Salamander activity and also that a click and then SHIFT-click selects a range of files including the first one...

I think that Salamander's CTRL-click behavior which I've inquired about herein is inconsistent both with standard Window's behavior AND Salamander's own behavior.
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SvA
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Post by SvA » 03 May 2006, 17:48

JohnFredC wrote:When is a click not a select in Salamander? Only when subsequently using the CTRL key. Huh?
No! A simple click is never a select in Salamander. Salamander, unlike Windows Explorer distinguishes between the active (of focused) item and selected items. In the standard color scheme, selected items are displayed in red, the active item has a grey background box around it. If the activ item is selected it displays as red text on grey background. In Windows Explorer, the active item is always selected also. Whenever you move to a different item in Explorer, you have to fear you loose your selections done so far or you'll have to deselect the item moved to, if you wanted to activate a different one without actually selecting it. This behaviour might be o.k. for Explorer, but with the extended capabilities (i.g. View, or information in the pannel status bar) Salamanders behaviour is much more appropriate.
JohnFredC wrote:Considering that a single click selects a single file for any Salamander activity and also that a click and then SHIFT-click selects a range of files including the first one...
Clicking an item makes it the active one. CTRL-clicking selects the item in addition to makeing it the active one. (Think about it: why shoul CTRL-click act differently when you apply it for the first time, and how should Salamander tetermine whether it is the first time?) SHIFT-clicking selects a range. It is obvious that it needs to start this range with the active one. So, everything is very consistent and intuitive as soon as you understand the difference between active and selected items.
Btw. an interface as Salamander's yields it's full potential when used with the keyboard (not meaning that it should not be (or is not) fully operationable using the mouse). Starting to use Salamander this way, you will soon learn to esteem things like this, which might seem to be quirky when you are just used to Windows Explorer.
JohnFredC wrote:I think that Salamander's CTRL-click behavior which I've inquired about herein is inconsistent both with standard Window's behavior AND Salamander's own behavior.
It is different from Windows Explorer's behaviour, but for good reason. I can't see any inconsistency in this, however. Most certainly not to Salamander's own behaviour.

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Post by Jan Rysavy » 03 May 2006, 18:47

We can implement this:

When NO ITEM is selected, AAA item is focused and user Ctrl+click the BBB item, both items will be selected. (Total Commander behaves this way.)

Servant Salamander users: tell us what you think about such change...

JohnFredC
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Post by JohnFredC » 03 May 2006, 21:00

2Jan
Servant Salamander users: tell us what you think about such change...
I vote for a configuration option to choose which behavior the user wants. Thanks for at least considering it!

2SvA
Clicking an item makes it the "active" one.
If you watch carefully, when you have clicked a single file to make it "active", then choose a file function for that file (such as Copy), Salamander quickly "self-selects" the file for you, converting it from "active" to "selected".

It may be initially confusing to the public at large (as it is to me) to find that, if other files have been CTRL selected, Salamander ceases to "self-select" the initial/first "active" (but not "selected") one.

I possibly could be convinced of a benefit to this behavior, but it is utterly different from every other tool I use.
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Post by Jan Rysavy » 03 May 2006, 22:01

JohnFredC wrote:I vote for a configuration option to choose which behavior the user wants. Thanks for at least considering it!
We will not add a new option for such marginal feature. The configuration is bloated already as it is.
Last edited by Jan Rysavy on 04 May 2006, 09:46, edited 1 time in total.

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SvA
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Post by SvA » 04 May 2006, 02:19

JohnFredC wrote:2SvA
Clicking an item makes it the "active" one.
If you watch carefully, when you have clicked a single file to make it "active", then choose a file function for that file (such as Copy), Salamander quickly "self-selects" the file for you, converting it from "active" to "selected".
Yes, you are right. It first irritated me when I saw it (older versions of Salamander did not do this). But it is an implementation detail which does not affect what happenes from the user's point of view.
You noted, that this only happenes when no item is selected. Most importantly, it does not happen to the active item if any items are selected.
Moreover it does not happen with all file operations, only with those who act on a list of items if one is provided by selecting some items. E.g. it does not happen with View.
JohnFredC wrote:It may be initially confusing to the public at large (as it is to me) to find that, if other files have been CTRL selected, Salamander ceases to "self-select" the initial/first "active" (but not "selected") one.
It does not cease to "self-select". It never did under given circumstances in the first place. It behaves just as always. (You must not view CTRL-clicking an item as a file operation like Copy. Copy acts on the list of selected items and de-selects them, whereas CTRL-clicking an item adds the item to the list.)
JohnFredC wrote:I possibly could be convinced of a benefit to this behavior, but it is utterly different from every other tool I use.
Which other tools do you know that use selected items and an active one which is not selected also? Ok. Jan says, Total Commander does behave as you suggested. But I still think it does not make sense and is inconsistent behaviour, so, please, Jan, don't change it.

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Post by JohnFredC » 04 May 2006, 03:50

Actually, as far as I have noticed, Salamander is the only tool I use that distinguishes between active and selected (well... Directory Opus has a "checkbox" mode which is very similar). It's a good thing... I like the ability to examine a file with the viewer before selecting it.

I was just inquiring about one little behavior I find inconvenient. I have to remember "oh yeh, this is Salamander, I have to change my behavior" and always remember to click TWICE on the initially active file if I want it included in a CTRL-click selection.

In my experience, no other filer behaves that way: DOpus, TC, SC, EFCommander, Magellan, AB Commander, Free Commander, Explorer, Xplorer2, etc. Also, since selecting from a list is a frequent Windows activity, I find that no non-filer software (Outlook for instance) that allows choices from lists behaves this way either.

So Salamander's approach to this one thing doesn't make sense to me and causes me trouble from time to time. But to each his own, I guess.
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Post by Jan Rysavy » 04 May 2006, 06:17

JohnFredC, I suppose you are talking about the special situation mentioned above?

No item is selected + one item is focused + another item is Ctrl+clicked.

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Post by AbteriX » 04 May 2006, 09:08

Jan Rysavy wrote:...
No item is selected + one item is focused + another item is Ctrl+clicked.
Attention, pls think twice:
Maybe there are users whose habit is to select items with Ctrl+click ??? (like in WinEx)
With this new beahviour (Jan posted) they have suddently two items selected !
i.e.
if they Ctrl+click the file they want, they get the focused file too ?!
AbteriX

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Post by Jan Rysavy » 04 May 2006, 10:06

AbteriX wrote:Maybe there are users whose habit is to select items with Ctrl+click ??? (like in WinEx)
I don't understand. Why should user Ctrl+click item if he didn't want to select/unselect it?
AbteriX wrote:With this new beahviour (Jan posted) they have suddently two items selected !
i.e.
if they Ctrl+click the file they want, they get the focused file too ?!
The whole Servant Salamander selection mechanism will remain untouched. Only change will be:

When no item is selected AND one item is focused AND another item is Ctrl+clicked, both items becomes selected.
(The clicked item will be focused, as it is now.)

I hope I understand right what JohnFredC is looking for...

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Post by KNUT » 04 May 2006, 10:32

Jan Rysavy wrote:The whole Servant Salamander selection mechanism will remain untouched.
That's correct. A huge change could confuse the users :evil:
Jan Rysavy wrote:Only change will be: When no item is selected AND one item is focused AND another item is Ctrl+clicked, both items becomes selected. (The clicked item will be focused, as it is now.)
This is the IMHO this is the "necessary" part!
Kind regards, KNUT
_____________________________________________
Satisfied Servant Salamander User from Version 1.5 till now

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AbteriX
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Post by AbteriX » 04 May 2006, 11:52

Sorry, maybe i didn't understand or have an other habit.

I see it this way:
In the beginning was:
..
aaa
bbb---focused
ccc
ddd
eee
--------------------------------------------------
The user do (When no item is selected... ):
..
aaa
bbb---focused (...AND one item is focused... )
ccc
ddd
eee----Ctrl+click (...AND another item is Ctrl+clicked)
--------------------------------------------------
The user will get suddently TWO selected items:
..
aaa
bbb----selected
ccc
ddd
eee----selected + focused

--------------------------------------------------
But the user could expect this
..
aaa
bbb
ccc
ddd
eee----selected + focused
This means, if i didn't want the focused item to be selected too,
i have e.g. to click on the two parent-folder dots first.
I mean i have always an item focused.
And this focused item will get in the future always selected too.

What i want to put into words in my post above
was, that some user could used to select items by Ctrl+click
in the past too....... - and they will get an additionally item selected
if this behaviour will be changed.

Sorry again, it's a good change that i didn't get the right words...or probably the hole story :oops:
AbteriX

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Post by Tomas Kopal » 04 May 2006, 12:45

AbteriX wrote:What i want to put into words in my post above
was, that some user could used to select items by Ctrl+click
in the past too....... - and they will get an additionally item selected
if this behaviour will be changed.
Well, yes. If the behaviour is changed, then users used to the old behaviour will have to adapt. That's why we are asking for your, users, opinion.
You said "some user", but we don't care about some hypothetical user. Are YOU used to the old behaviour? Will YOU have problems with this change?
So far, there are users having problems with the current behaviour. If there is more users having problem with the new one, we'll keep the current one, otherwise we may change it.
So, NOW is the time to voice YOUR opinion, do YOU prefer the current behaviour, the new one, or you don't care?

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