Problem: Delayed View and Delete Operations

therube · Post by **therube** » 13 May 2007, 20:17

Problem: Delayed View and Delete Operations

Could be similar to, Problem: Delayed Move and Copy Operations?
Tim & Mem both mentioned Shift+Delete delays

Now this is a weird one, that is going to be difficult to explain ...

Delays - sometimes, when returning from a View, or when Deleting a file/directory, before the panel updates. Delay can be two to three seconds. Hour glass usually appears with a View delay, but not with a Delete delay.

For me, this is more apparent on some types of files, then on others. Like I am more likely to observe this with a tiny Unicode .reg file, rather then with some other file type.

View is set to Auto-Select.

Delete problems are even harder to quantify. Simply a delay before the panel updates.

Use the F3/ESC method, linked in post below, to observe this.

I am observing this - for the first time today, in SS 2.5.
After noticing it, I installed SS 2.0, but I don't believe I'm seeing the same there.

therube · Post by **therube** » 13 May 2007, 20:22

Another possibly unrelated bug, Bug? Keyboard Buffer Problem.

therube · Post by **therube** » 13 May 2007, 20:39

The delays caused me to think of HDD PIO, but I verified that I am running UDMA.

"Non-standard" mouse cursors was mentioned, & I had been running Windows Inverted Extra Large, but changing to None (i.e., defaults) made no difference.

Try to turn off option Options > Configuration > Drives > Fixed drives > Use automatic refresh.
No difference.

No A/V, no Windows Defender, no skins. Only thing running is Windows Firewall.

Nothing in Event Viewer.

Motherboard chipset?

Code: Select all

Computer Type	ACPI Multiprocessor PC
Operating System	Microsoft Windows XP Professional
OS Service Pack	Service Pack 2
Internet Explorer	7.0.5730.11 (IE 7.0)
DirectX	4.09.00.0904 (DirectX 9.0c)
	
Motherboard	
CPU Type	DualCore Intel Core 2 Duo E4300, 1800 MHz (9 x 200)
Motherboard Name	ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA  (4 PCI, 1 PCI-E x16, 1 AGP, 2 DDR DIMM, 2 DDR2 DIMM, Audio, LAN)
Motherboard Chipset	VIA Apollo PT880 Ultra
System Memory	2048 MB  (DDR2-667 DDR2 SDRAM)
BIOS Type	AMI (03/03/07)
Communications Port (COM1)   ECP Printer Port (LPT1)
	
Display	
Video Adapter	NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X (MS Corporation)  (64 MB)
	
Multimedia	
Audio Adapter	Realtek ALC888 @ VIA VT8237A High Definition Audio Controller
	
Storage	
IDE Controller	VIA Bus Master IDE Controller - 0571
IDE Controller	VIA Serial ATA Controller - 0591
Disk Drive	Maxtor 6B250R0  (250 GB, 7200 RPM, Ultra-ATA/133)
	
Input	
Keyboard	Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard
Mouse	Microsoft PS/2 Mouse
	
Network	
Network Adapter	VIA Rhine II Fast Ethernet Adapter

Another possible contributing factor? MS Rant ...

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT THE LAST SET (May) OF MS UPDATES ARE REALLY SCREWING UP A LOT OF SYSTEMS. (That the last set are far more invasive then what one my believe. That all of a sudden, a clean running system is suddenly running like crap.)

AFAIK, I am fully update to date with all MS Critical Updates (save WGA/WGN).

Possibly IE7 related? Yesterday, I was running IE6. (Or I may have just not noticed it yesterday?)

System & OS:

XP SP2.

(Yesterday) took my XP SP2, added RyanVM post SP2 updates pack including the latest DX, & WMP10. Used nLite to integrate RyanVM packs, my key, & (very) minimal tweaks. Basically giving me as close to an unattended & clean install that I wanted to get. Added IE7 after the fact. There have also been a few MS updates after the latest (April) RyanVM pack - two today.

This is a new install onto my old HD (new system hardware), but into a newly formatted partition. (All the rest of my partitions are likely heavily fragmented & severely lacking fee space.)

I have not (yet?) installed Nvidia graphics drivers, but am using whatever defaults that MS installed. If i were to install, i would put in (an older) version 78.01's.

Otherwise, all the drivers from the M/B CDROM were installed - at least those that there were to install. VIA 4-n-1, though I think it only actually installed (needed to install) 2 of the 4. LAN worked on XP install, nevertheless I installed driver from M/B CDROM. USB was per XP. No sound till after I installed driver from CDROM.

therube · Post by **therube** » 13 May 2007, 21:12

Tiny little Unicode .reg file to View.
Download, unpack, hit F3/ESC repeatedly. See if hourglass doesn't show?

therube · Post by **therube** » 14 May 2007, 08:18

On the Delete end of the problem, it definitely appears to be Shift+DEL (bypassing the Recycle Bin) where this is observable. I am not noticing it with simply using the DEL key.

Once again it could be related to the KB bug?

Perhaps the polling is inefficient or wrong. The Shift key, by being continuously depressed, is flooding the keystroke pool, & till it clears, allowing it to process further characters, we are seeing a lull?

(But that is not going to be it entirely, is it? That could be with multiple rapid deletions - holding down shift+DEL+y, & repeating, but that still does not answer the times when out of the blue a single deletion is slow to respond.)

I'm pretty sure that this is not occurring in Windows Explorer. I can go through a few hundred deletions in SS in no time flat. It is much harder to accomplish the same in Explorer - in particular because focus is lost after each deletion.

This does not occur in SS 2.0.
You can continuously hold down the Shift key, while typing back & forth DEL+y+DEL+y+DEL+y+DEL+y & away the files go.

This does not occur in SS 2.5 on all systems.
I put SS back on to my old system that I will be getting rid of soon, & on that system, I have no problem with Shift+Delete. (Maybe I shouldn't be getting rid of it.)

Specs on my old system. That too would be with a clean install. XP SP2 Home disk, all critical updates from MS (only), no nLite, IE7 & .NET 1.1 & 2.0 & 3.0. Same video cards in my old & my new system, but otherwise they are architecturally totally different. In the old system, I did install the Nvidia video card drivers.:

Code: Select all

Computer	
Computer Type	ACPI Uniprocessor PC
Operating System	Microsoft Windows XP Home
OS Service Pack	Service Pack 2
Internet Explorer	7.0.5730.11 (IE 7.0)
DirectX	4.09.00.0904 (DirectX 9.0c)
	
Motherboard	
CPU Type	AMD Athlon XP, 2133 MHz (16 x 133) 2600+
Motherboard Name	Shuttle AN35(N) Ultra  (5 PCI, 1 AGP, 3 DDR DIMM, Audio)
Motherboard Chipset	nVIDIA nForce2 Ultra 400
System Memory	1024 MB  (PC2700 DDR SDRAM)
BIOS Type	Award (12/05/03)
	
Display	
Video Adapter	NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X  (64 MB)
	
Multimedia	
Audio Adapter	Realtek ALC650 @ nVIDIA MCP2 - Audio Codec Interface
	
Storage	
IDE Controller	NVIDIA nForce2 ATA Controller (v2.6)
Disk Drive	Maxtor 6L120P0  (120 GB, 7200 RPM, Ultra-ATA/133)
Optical Drive	GENERIC DVD DUAL 4XMax
	
Input	
Keyboard	Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard
Mouse	PS/2 Compatible Mouse
	
Network	
Network Adapter	NVIDIA nForce Networking Controller

Maybe it is a KB interrupt polling problem on particular computers/BIOS?

therube · Post by **therube** » 14 May 2007, 19:22

Code: Select all

98A   2GB   64MB   Cyrix CPU 250MHz   Rage IIC video   IE6 DX9  Via VT82C598 Apollo (Emachine sherry)
98SE 20GB  128MB   CeleronII 700MHz   Intel 82810/i752 IE6 DX9  Intel i810 (HP larry)
XP H 80GB  256MB   Celeron 2400 MHz   Intel 82845 64MB IE6 DX9  Intel i845 (Dell neil)
 * last two updates had not been installed, 930916 931768 but no difference 

***All above ran fine

***Below did not

XP H 60GB  768MB   Celeron 2900 Mhz   ATI Radeon Xpress 200 (chipset & video) IE7 DX9 (a1200y)
 * five updates had not been (& still are not) installed
XP H 120GB   1GB   Athlon XP2600+     Nvidia GeForce4 MX440  IE7 DX9    nForce2 (my old)
XP P 250GB   2GB   Intel E4300        Nvidia GeForce4 MX440  IE7 DX9    VIA Apollo PT880 (my new)

Quite a diverse sampling of systems.

All (I believe) have onboard video, except for my two systems. All did not have the lastest MS updates. (Neil KB931768 KB930916. A1200y 925720 927977 MSXML 917283+922770 .NET 2.0 934238). So it is not necessarily an issue with one or two of the latest MS updates. The only real commonality is IE7 & .NET(?) ?

Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing...

therube · Post by **therube** » 14 May 2007, 19:39

Take a look at KB929969 -> MS07-004: Vulnerability in Vector Markup Language could allow remote code execution.

Figured I'd remove IE7 from (a1200y). Saw there were two updates to IE7. Figured I'd remove them first. Removed one. Got to the second update & ... "Setup detected the following programs on your computer. If KB929969 is removed, these programs might not run properly.".

So it is "injecting" itself into SS?

I stopped at that point. I can continue if you wish.

therube · Post by **therube** » 15 May 2007, 18:51

Alright, I'm convinced.

CTFMON.EXE

is the culprit. At least on a1200y.

\windows\system32\ctfmon.exe
15,360 bytes 04-08-2004 12:00:00 AM
CTF Loader 5.1.2600.2180
md5 24232996a38c0b0cf151c2140ae29fc8

-------

Uninstalled IE7 SPs.
Reboot. Check.
Uninstalled IE7
Reboot. Check.

No changes.

FAIL

-------

AutoRuns

-------

Disable "most" everything. ("Most likely items. Leave most Services as is.)
Reboot Check.

PASSES

-------

+ Realtek
PASSES

+ATI
PASSES

+HP
PASSES

+Adobe
PASSES

+stuff under Explorer Tab
PASSES

+stuff under Internet Explorer & Services
PASSES

+I ADD EVERYTHING BACK IN
*PASSES*

-------

(during this time, I had been running Autoruns with Hide Signed MS Entries)

+Show MS Entries

-------

+ctfmon & msmsgs
*FAILS*

-ctfmon
+msmgs
*PASSES*

+ctfmon
*FAILS*

-------

ctfmon "active" (actually running, as it is physically installed in XP SP2) on ...

Code: Select all

Sherry     Larry   Neil a1200y      MyOld    MyNew     Office
    ?        N      N      Y           Y        Y         N

I won't be able to check my two computers till this evening, the others till later.

So far, Y & N correspond to where I have run into this problem.

Bug? Keyboard Buffer Problem, is almost certainly the same situation.
Good possibility here to, Problem: Delayed Move and Copy Operations.

-------

Reinstalled IE7 (but did not run it).
Reboot.
Check for problems in SS.
No problems.

RUN IE7 for the first time.
Check for problems in SS.
Problem returns.
ctfmon.exe is now running.

So installing IE7 causes ctfmon.exe to load.

Remove ctfmon.exe via MSCONFIG.
Reboot.
No problems.

RUN IE7 ... *STANDBY*
(looks like running IE7 starts up ctfmon.exe, which then causes problems in SS)

Correct. Running IE7 loads ctfmon.exe. And immediately SS misbehaves. No reboot required.

So ...
Remove ctfmon.exe (via MSCONFIG).
Reboot.
Verify that ctfmon.exe is not loaded (via MSCONFIG)
Verify that SS is ok.

Run IE7.
Verify that ctfmon.exe IS now loaded (via MSCONFIG)
Check status of SS - NOT ok.

Frequently asked questions about Ctfmon.exe

therube · Post by **therube** » 15 May 2007, 20:11

Now the question remains, is this a problem with MS & IE7 & ctfmon.exe, or SS 2.5?

(The problem does not exist in SS 2.0)

therube · Post by **therube** » 16 May 2007, 01:56

Every machine that I have come across where this problem has occurred, has had ctfmon.exe loaded into memory.

Unloading it & SS works without incident.

BTW, instead of rebooting (which I've now done thousands of times

) between each unselection, it is easier to Logout & then log back in. Easier yet to kill ctfmon.exe in Task Manager.

Now why didn't I think of that ages ago

?

Kill in Task Manager, run a test.
Run IE7 & it will reload, run a test.

In my mind, this is now a done deal - resolved - well, except for actually fixing the underlying cause. But that I'll leave to Altap & Company

.

Post by **Jan Rysavy** » 16 May 2007, 07:08

Looks VERY PROMISING!

Could others confirm relation of delay_problem with CTFMON.EXE?
Please let us know your CTFMON.EXE version and office version. Thanks!

Post by **Jan Rysavy** » 16 May 2007, 07:35

We should probably continue in a former thread (the same problem): http://forum.altap.cz/viewtopic.php?t=1603

I will not lock this thread, but please use the link above...