Rightclick zaps selection

Discussion of bugs and problems found in Altap Salamander. In your reports, please be as descriptive as possible, and report one incident per report. Do not post crash reports here, send us the generated bug report by email instead, please.
Anteaus
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Rightclick zaps selection

Post by Anteaus »

2.5 looks very good, congratulations coders.

One point, with a list of files or folders selected, right-clicking on the pane itself zaps the selection, with no way of recovering it.

I imagine this is a bug, can't see why anyone would want this to happen.
Jan Rysavy
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Post by Jan Rysavy »

We changed this from version 2.0 to 2.5. When you right-click the panel, displayed context menu belongs to current directory (instead of selected items) so all selected names are unselected.

Try Windows Explorer, it behaves the same way.

The Edit > Restore Selection command should work in this case, I will fix it.
therube
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Post by therube »

Sorry, I don't buy it.
Try Windows Explorer, it behaves the same way.
Just cause Windows does it, does not mean you should.
IMO, the behavior is wrong.


If I have a set of files highlighted, so long as my mouse cursor position remains on one of those files, I can right-click & do as I please, & as I expect. Perhaps something like sending those files to Send To.

If I have a set of files highlighted, and my cursor position is not on one of those files, when I right-click, my highlighted files are no more. If I then proceed with my Send To, the wrong file set is being sent.


Take the case where you are highlighting files with the Insert key. Hitting Insert automatically advances the cursor to the following file. So I've just highlighted 3 files, intending to send them to Send To. Now, for whatever reason, my mouse cursor just happens to be sitting on that un-highlighted file, as soon as I right-click, my intended file selection is gone. The files I had intended to Send To are not, instead that single un-highlighted file is.


IMO, the behavior is wrong.
Last edited by therube on 09 May 2007, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Mem
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Post by Mem »

I was complaining about this too but Explorer behaviour has its logic either (as Mr. Rysavy described) so it's difficult to judge. Maybe add and option to Salamander's settings?
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SvA
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Post by SvA »

Think about it again. The right click menue is always the context menue of the object you are clicking on. The back pane is the folder object. Why should it's context menu belong to some selected files within that folder when you just as well could have right clicked on those highlighted files themselves?
I can't see no logic at all in what you propose. Ther#s not yet any computer that knows to do "Do What I Mean". until then it definitely should do what you tell it to do. Maybe it helps if you look at it from the other way. Say there are some files selected, maybe even out of the visible range. now you want to do anything with some file you see, rightclick on it, and whithout any indication you operate on a set of files you did not want to operate on at all.

I suggested before to have the restore selection available in many more cases as it is right now. I am glad Jan recognised this as one place where it should be available. Thus, if you fail to hit the selected files, you will no longer loose your carefully selected set of files.
therube
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Post by therube »

I hear what you're saying.
I took a deep breath, & I'll have to contemplate it :wink:.
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Textor
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Re: Rightclick zaps selection

Post by Textor »

Anteaus wrote:One point, with a list of files or folders selected, right-clicking on the pane itself zaps the selection, with no way of recovering it.

I imagine this is a bug, can't see why anyone would want this to happen.
This seems a rather esoteric point of criticism to me. Right-clicking on neither a file nor directory, during a selection-of-items-operation?

But still, Salamander offers a remedy for this case:

you can save the current selection with Ctrl-Shift-F5, and restore it later with Ctrl-Shift-F6. There are also toolbar buttons available for these functions.

The saved selection can replace the current one, or be added/subtracted/intersected.
therube
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Post by therube »

All these esoteric options, though they may be, that is not the point to me.


I'm sitting here, I highlight a selection of files - knowing that I'm going to want to do something with them. I know I want to send them somewhere - via a right-click.

So, I right-click. And what happens? Because my mouse moved, my files are no longer selected. Sure Ctrl+W, or Ctrl+Shift+F6 (though only if it had first occured to you to do a Ctrl+Shift+F5) could get you out of a jam. But why. Why do you have to go through that, simply cause your mouse pointer moved a few millimeters in the wrong direction?

It's not like, I've highlight files, went & made myself tea, came back & had forgotten that I had files highlighted.

By making a "mistake" - moving my mouse, I'm making things harder for myself.


(Note that this scenario is quite different from that which I described in File Comparator. In that scenario, after viewing differences for a period of time in FC, it is quite conceivable that after coming back to SS that you would not realize that there were files that had been left highlighted - as is currently the case when you run FC. File Comparator - Un-highlight Files After Initiation)


(PS: I did not know about Ctrl+Shift+F5/6, & was going to ask about a "tagging" system, where you could tag selected files to perform actions upon at a later time.)


Another scenario.

You're exploring System Volume Information. And all the files are named A*.*. Meaningless. Yes you could hack around change.log, but it is not necessarily convenient or easy.

Sometimes, the easiest & quickest way to glean some information is to Alt+Enter & explore the files properties. Now, when doing that, what I'll often want to do is to leave certain files highlighted. To perform some action on them in the near future. But if I do that, then a subsequent Alt+Enter will give me information on the highlighted
selection rather then the particular file I'm actually inquiring about. A quandary.

So I either, at that time, perform whatever action I want to on the highlighted files, or I un-highlight them, do the Alt+Enter on a different file, & then go back & highlight what I want again. Less then optimal. (Ctrl+Shift+F5 will help - thanks.)


A few differing scenarios. A few differing ways of working with files. You want it to be easier, but with the way it currently is, all I see is that you're fighting against yourself.
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JohnFredC
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Post by JohnFredC »

IMHO this confusing behavior is a result of the fact that highlighted files and selected files are subtly different concepts in Salamander. Other file managers either don't observe the distinction, or provide another, perhaps less confusing method for persistent selections (ie, Dopus's "checkbox" mode).

There was another thread a while back about that addressed this issue from another perspective.

I too am a developer and frequently observe myself "absorbing" my own design decisions into my unconscious behaviors so that they become second nature to me (ie. motor memory). But when I take my applications to my clients, they are not always privy to my design logic, or haven't "practiced" it sufficiently for it to become second nature. In those circumstances, they actually struggle to learn a new behavior that may not seem logical initially (due to conflict with already learned behaviors). Their struggles tend to obscure whatever benefits I initally intended. After watching these struggles over the years, I am very careful that if a software I design deviates from "expected" behaviors and responses to user inputs, it does so in a very clear and unambiguous manner. Especially in file managers, there should never be a doubt about what is going to happen to our files. The behavior of a file manager should be inspectable, not "intuited".

From an even broader perspective, until Salamander is sufficiently functionally robust to be the "one and only" file manager, most of us will have to use other similar tools from time to time to do those things that Salamander won't. In the press of daily responsibility and goals set for our behaviors (sometimes by others), switching between tools that exhibit "different" responses to our uniform inputs can be problematic, and sometimes disastrously so.

This is my personal experience and a vote for supporting so-called "standard" behaviors by default.
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Jan Rysavy
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Post by Jan Rysavy »

therube wrote:Now, when doing that, what I'll often want to do is to leave certain files highlighted. To perform some action on them in the near future. But if I do that, then a subsequent Alt+Enter will give me information on the highlighted
selection rather then the particular file I'm actually inquiring about. A quandary.

So I either, at that time, perform whatever action I want to on the highlighted files, or I un-highlight them, do the Alt+Enter on a different file, & then go back & highlight what I want again. Less then optimal. (Ctrl+Shift+F5 will help - thanks.)
Hint only: in this case I'm using Ctrl+Shift+Right (Left) to open current directory in the second panel and focus current name. Existing selection will stay untouched.
Jan Rysavy
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Post by Jan Rysavy »

JohnFredC wrote:perhaps less confusing method for persistent selections (ie, Dopus's "checkbox" mode)
John, what is difference between "checked" item and "red-colored" item?
JohnFredC
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Post by JohnFredC »

In Dopus (in optional checkbox mode) the user may click in the check box to select/deselect the file. Clicks elsewhere on the line do not affect the check box. The checkbox is simultaneously the selection indicator AND self-evident selector control.

I'm not opposed to Salamander's behavior (though there is some ambiguity -in my mind- about the space bar as selector vs. the spacebar as folder-size calculator).

It just seems to me that the Dopus approach is more intuitive to the average (perhaps new?) user. It is already clear to most users, even newbies, what a checkbox does. The selection persistence mechanism and display that Salamander employs is not visually self-evident. It has to be learned. Is it more efficient than the Dopus approach...? Hmmm. Maybe. Not sure.

And (as an aside)... what about tablet users who have no keyboards?

Not asking for a change in Salamander, just trying to point out the larger issues.
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Jan Rysavy
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Post by Jan Rysavy »

JohnFredC wrote:It just seems to me that the Dopus approach is more intuitive to the average (perhaps new?) user. It is already clear to most users, even newbies, what a checkbox does.
Checkbox selection is also available (optional) in Windows Vista Explorer. We should consider it...
Thank you for all ideas!
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Anteaus
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Post by Anteaus »

Just to come back to this, the issue isn't exactly esoteric if you've just spent a half-hour selecting files or folders to archive, or to create a CD compilation from. In that case, one moment of inattention (perhaps just thinking, "I wonder what version that file is, let's rightclick..." ) equals half an hour's lost work. Which is exactly the reason why Explorer's file-selection is so useless.

As to checkboxes, well, maybe, though it sounds like it's going to be very fiddly if you can't either click the line or tap the spacebar. Bottom line is that the original file-selection behaviour was one of Salamander's great strengths over Explorer, and I'd think it would be unwise to change it without due consideration.
therube
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Post by therube »

Which is exactly the reason why Explorer's file-selection is so useless. ... Bottom line is that the original file-selection behaviour was one of Salamander's great strengths over Explorer
Agreed.
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